A Player Created UWO Stock Exchange...Concept

CrzyPsycoChickCrzyPsycoChick Posts: 650Member Intermediate
I'm considering creating a UWO stock exchange for the game I believe this will add a brand new element to the game and drive wealth as well as activity in game.  This game with the addition of stock trading can add a new level of fun for players and give this game something bo other game has.  I'm trying to get as much feedback as possible before doing this to see what you guys think or any concerns so I can iron out the details.  


UWO Stock Exchange Concept:

A well known company like Garuda for instance offers shares of its company  for players to purchase say 10 million shares (with 10 million privately owned by directors deputies and comp members), players can then purchase those shares from a broker for  say 10,000 Ducats a share.  If a player purchased say 10,000 shares its worth 100 million ducats.  These shares can rise in value as time progresses so lets say the share proce rises to 20k a share your stock is now worth 200 million and you literally had to do nothing.  This doesnt have to be limited to just companies and extend to individual players businesses like Caddy' Shipbuilding business or Crzy's Auction Business or Tsavo's Ship part business.



Why should a company want its stocks traded:

1. As more people invest in your company your company stock rises in value and your stake can then be sold for cash. If Director holds 2 million shares at 20k a share thats worth 40 Billion ducats.  This also determines how healthy your company is.

2. Your company members can now be given stock in the company as an incentive that can increase their worth as well that they can sell for cash as well.

3.  Raises notoriety and more people will want shares of the company thus making even more money.

4. Can offer dividends to stockholders to further increase stock price through incentive.

5. Companies can do stock buy backs of its own stock and sell back to the market.

6. A small amount of every share bought or sold per day can be put aside for the company as income. For instance lets say company revenue is 1 ducat per share. A player sells 50k shares another buys those 50k shares thats 100k that is given to the company.  So if trade volume is 100 million for a single day and the company earns 1 ducat each share thats 30 billion in income per month for the director and deputies.  This of course increases a company net worth to show the company is healthy and thus worthy of higher share prices.  Healthier companies mean higher share prices   


Advantages for the game:
1. Stocks can be used as currency to exceed the 20 billion dollar cap of money on person.  For instance a ship selling for  30 billion can be sold for 20 billion and 10 billion worth of stock. No need to risk multiple trades.

2. Opens up a few new professions  that players can now do such as stock trader who buys stocks when they are low and sells when price is high. Also a stock brokers that can take orders for stocks to be filled. Exchanges who actually transfer stocks.

3. Will give the game something I dont think any other game offers in terms of trade especially with actually having company stocks and in game day trading.

4. Even new companies can participate as (penny stocks) 
And can still be very lucrative for them and its members and even offer players with very low money the ability trade/ invest to be able to participate since they're so cheap. Even someone with 50k ducats can make millions trading company stocks.

5. Would greatly increase wealth among players and give incentive to play harder to raise money.

6.  This would encourage different types of companies to be active.  For example You can invest in Pirate companies to plunder people and sell the goods as their stock rises they can then get more people to plunder players and make more $ as they make cash stock prices go up.  Also the inverse bounty hunter companies can be invested in to put more bounty hunters at sea to protect sea.  This would cause pirates and BH's to not just simply fight at sea but also fight for majority control.  More pirates sunk higher BH company stock more traders plunder higher Pirate company stock....


How would it work:


Companies are assessed by The Stock Exchange to determine value and potential for growth.  Price is set for stock as well as number of shares that will be offered.  The players then place their stock orders with the player and stocks are traded via the broker.  The prices and sales are recorded via an online excel spreadsheet and everyone is given the link to see current stock price and any changes as well as company info like number of members, avg volume, avg level of players in company.  


What do you guys think do you think? Any ideas, suggestions, concerns and problems?




lefox271purplepirate
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Comments

  • lefox271lefox271 Posts: 495Member Intermediate
    Some fascinating ideas.

    My first thought was - No.

    My second thought was - But Yes.

    And I finished on a - Noooooo.

    Closely followed by an - Aaaaaggghhhh!

    The last was just realising why real life finance industries are so closely regulated. Gotta go out just now but will explain my other responses later.
  • lefox271lefox271 Posts: 495Member Intermediate
    My first 'no' was based on the thought that there is no mechanism for actually making any money.

    If a RL company releases shares, it doesn't just put the cash in the bank. It does something with the money. I.e. the money has to be put to work. A company asks investors for cash because it wants to do something which it could not otherwise do. But pretty much everything in UWO can be done by everyone anyway. The investment you need to do it is usually time, rather than cash.

    So if people invested in Garuda (for example), what would Garuda do with the 100mil ducats (say) that its members couldn't have done anyway?

    If the invested money is not being used, then it is not doing any work, and so it is not making any new money.

    Let's say I've just sold a cargo of EA goods for 100mil. and my overheads were 10mil. I've made 90mil. But if I share any of that with company investors, I make less money. Why would I do that? When the investors money is not doing any work of its own, any interest has to be paid out of profits which I would have earned any way.

    It's a neat demonstration of Marx's principle that in a capitalist economy, if someone makes a profit it's paid for by exploiting someone else!

    So to make the share scheme work you would need to find something to do with the money it raised. The reason players are all cash rich is because there is nothing to do with your money that would make more money.

    Here's one thing which could work: you use the investor's cash to buy-up EA goods as they arrive in the capital cities paying mid-market prices. You 'warehouse' them, and sell them back to the game as and when the game price is high. The profit is then shared as a dividend with the investors (minus your 'expenses' of course).

    But you can see it's going to require time and effort on your part - and in any case will the profits be particularly good? 

    Maybe it's my lack of imagination - but I can see few viable ways of actually making money work to make more money. Without a money-making scheme, investment won't work.
  • purplepiratepurplepirate Posts: 800Member Intermediate
    Interesting idea, but shouldn't stocks tie into your nation influence and affect it's global status? I would think that ultimately there should be some kind of 'stock market' system that will come into the game. My only real issue with it would be, what would happen to your investment if a company is deleted either by closing by the director or due to inactivity from the server (how would you get your investment back). Also how would you regulate a company making alts and spamming their own company with investments?
    IGN: Samantha99
  • lefox271lefox271 Posts: 495Member Intermediate
    My qualified 'yes' was then based on the idea you could promote your company as a bank. 

    So the 'shares' are not shares as such, but rather 'deposits'. The 'IOUs' that Garuda gives out are then a bit like bank notes. (Bank notes were originally called 'promissory notes' - I promise to pay the bearer on demand ... etc). 

    It enables people to keep more cash, because their money is in "Duc-udas" (? LoL) rather than Ducats. And there is a second currency to rival the in-game currency.


    Of course that's dangerous because there would be a Duc-uda/ Ducat exchange rate. That would violate the ToS because dealing could be done outside of Papaya's control. There could be exchanges of real Dollars for in-game items. So more of a Doll-uda than a Duc-uda!!

    Hence my second 'No'.

    And the closely followed "Aaaggghhh"? 

    Think about it. Like CPC says it all takes a 'trusted' company. You have to trust no one will run off with your Ducats. It's with good reason our financial institutions are so closely regulated. Bankers are just pirates in suits.
    purplepirate
  • purplepiratepurplepirate Posts: 800Member Intermediate
    @lefox271 Bankers are just pirates in suits

    And some Presidents lol
    lefox271
    IGN: Samantha99
  • lefox271lefox271 Posts: 495Member Intermediate
    Ha Ha! Yes PP. The US has a bigot in wolf's clothing. 

    Our Prime Minister (sheep in wolf's clothing) has just resigned and the replacement front runner is a buffoon in motley.

    But buffoons or bigots they all take dressing-up too seriously.

    "Piracy is more honest than respectability" - I think it's a line from a Gilbert & Sullivan operatta.
  • carlalexcarlalex Posts: 181Member Trainee
    @lefox271 Capitalist economy isnt a zero sum game. So far no other economic system in history has even gotten close in generating wealth - wealth that can then be taxed to pay for education, health care, pensions, all sorts of other social welfare benefits and so on.
  • CrzyPsycoChickCrzyPsycoChick Posts: 650Member Intermediate
    Thanks for all the feedback guys its alot to respond to so bear with me


    My first 'no' was based on the thought that there is no mechanism for actually making any money.

    If a RL company releases shares, it doesn't just put the cash in the bank. It does something with the money. I.e. the money has to be put to work. A company asks investors for cash because it wants to do something which it could not otherwise do. But pretty much everything in UWO can be done by everyone anyway. The investment you need to do it is usually time, rather than cash.


    <b>The company would make money in a few ways 

    1. Through trade commissions ie. For every share of stock sold or 
    bought or sold by the company would be given 1 ducat. So the more people who invest and trade that company's stock the more money the company makes. The net income if you will this is very important I'll come back to this.
    2. Through its company shares price rising or falling(shorting). If the share price rises the shares of the company can be sold for cash or  the company can buy back its stock for a lower price(short) and sell it later when the price comes back up.
    3. Purchasing other companies and adding their assets or shares to the company. This essentially adds additional content to the game in the aspect that one company can be a mega conglomerate and own others companies or get a boost by merging with a larger company. </b>

    So if people invested in Garuda (for example), what would Garuda do with the 100mil ducats (say) that its members couldn't have done anyway?
    <b> I'll address this below but yea they can make 100mil BUT they had to invest time to do so. With investment no time is invested just profit while you play and get even more cash if you perform well.  I mean 100 mil doing nanban is great but 100mil and additional 200mil with potential to go up every day on stop through stocks is even better would you not agree?

    As far as what Garuda does Thats up to Garuda and thats what would make it cool the director and deputies would truly be in charge of the company's fate.  If Garuda increases say dividend payout it would then add more value to their stock or if they take that cash to merge or buyout another company for example here are a few things a company could do..
    1. Increase dividend payout to investors
    2. Buyout a company
    3. Increase employees size while its either through merger or just getting more members.  More members means a healthier company and thus a better investment for investors
    4  Buy more assets(ships assets) to make more money
    5. Use money to show the company is healthy and worthy of investment such as port investment, an amazing fleet of ships and gear(net worth) , hosting events, win events, amount of nanban goods or item and parts for sale in company shop, company contrib, average levels of company members, showing dominance at sea or controlling an area at sea with a naval blockade.  All of this information can be given to investors if verfied to further increase stock worth. This also encourages all players of all types to add to company even adventurers
    6. Increase earnings either through increased stock volume or through more members making money. If they have more $ they can do buy backs, mergers, dividends and buy assets. </b>


    Let's say I've just sold a cargo of EA goods for 100mil. and my overheads were 10mil. I've made 90mil. But if I share any of that with company investors, I make less money. Why would I do that? When the investors money is not doing any work of its own, any interest has to be paid out of profits which I would have earned any way.

    <b> Passive income as well as potential to make much more money through selling of stocks with comission fees </b>

    It's a neat demonstration of Marx's principle that in a capitalist economy, if someone makes a profit it's paid for by exploiting someone else!

    So to make the share scheme work you would need to find something to do with the money it raised. The reason players are all cash rich is because there is nothing to do with your money that would make more money.

    Here's one thing which could work: you use the investor's cash to buy-up EA goods as they arrive in the capital cities paying mid-market prices. You 'warehouse' them, and sell them back to the game as and when the game price is high. The profit is then shared as a dividend with the investors (minus your 'expenses' of course).
    <b> Thats brilliant could do that I dont see why not the potential and possibilities are are endless. Even the exchange itself if they see you're a great company can purchase a sizable amount of that company stock</b>


    But you can see it's going to require time and effort on your part - and in any case will the profits be particularly good? 

    <b> Hey all money making requires effort lol. I'd love to have help with this...There alot of money to be made doing this...</b>

    Maybe it's my lack of imagination - but I can see few viable ways of actually making money work to make more money. Without a money-making scheme, investment won't work

    <b> Pessimism is fantastic! The best ideas are born through seeing what could wrong or what won't work then fixing and improving on them.  Your ideas are always welcome :P </b>
  • CrzyPsycoChickCrzyPsycoChick Posts: 650Member Intermediate
    Of course! The bold tags dont work for me ~_~ ugggghhh how I loathe Papaya Play Forums
  • lefox271lefox271 Posts: 495Member Intermediate
    @carlalex

    Capitalism not zero sum?

    Er ... Poverty. Disadvantage. Inequality. Social exclusion. Discrimination. Lack of social mobility. Wage gaps. Unemployment. Crime. Fraud. Deception. Banking and investment scandal. Corruption. Waste. Inflation. Deflation. 

    Is that about it? 

    Nope ... greenhouse gases, global warming, plastic pollution in the seas, antibiotics in our rivers, carbon monoxide, particulates ... hell I could go on and on.

    If you are going to cite mathematical theory at me, then you need to work through both sides of the equation! 


    And besides ...

    The 'free market' is premised on a principle of free and fair exchange. E.g. a fair day's wage for a fair day's pay. The employment/ wage transaction is precisely one of the areas where game theorists have used a zero sum hypothesis to understand the exchange- why are employees happy for employers to make more from their labour than they receive in wages?

    Theory (like zero sum) is not intended to describe the world, but rather to provoke us to think differently about it. It's an excellent way of thinking about the capitalist economy. And when you do, you realise that "progress" and "wealth generation" are not quite the unadulterated virtues which the wealthy and powerful would have us believe.
  • CrzyPsycoChickCrzyPsycoChick Posts: 650Member Intermediate
    Interesting idea, but shouldn't stocks tie into your nation influence and affect it's global status? I would think that ultimately there should be some kind of 'stock market' system that will come into the game.

    Hmmm thats a very interesting idea and a cool one at that.  Maybe some possible ways this can be done is...
    1.  Create stock exchanges for each Capital.  ie. One for Spain, Dutch,English, Portuguese and French.  then that way the more nations that invest for Sphere of Influence the more the value of the stock increase for companies in that nation or decrease as a nation loses influence
    2.  Perhaps it could be tied to ESF as well meaning that if a nation say loses cities during ESF the value of the companies in that nation would go down and the winners would go up or if they lose.  This would show that the companies in that particular nation are doing extremely well.
    3.  Number of companies in a capital with values over 700 could also determine if a nation is rising or failing.



    My only real issue with it would be, what would happen to your investment if a company is deleted either by closing by the director or due to inactivity from the server (how would you get your investment back). 

    The way the real stock market works is like this if a company fails to keep stock price above a certain amount for 30 days it gets delisted.  When a stock is delisted by the SEC it no longer appears on the exchange the stocks are still there they just no longer appear on the exchange and are then sold OTC (Over the Counter) on a lesser known exchange called "Pink Sheets".  This can be risky as these stocks aren't regulated even remotely as well and it can fall victim to "fake news" like "Oh this company just added 20 new members" to prop up stock prices then dump them when you invest. Now if you are a very skilled trader you can get in and get out before that happens but alot are not which makes these stocks very volatile.

    Now to answer your question in terms of the game The exchange will regulate and verify company claims.  This works with a simple mail to the exchange by either the Director or Deputies every 30 days this will ensure they are active. If a company fails to send the mail or notify of any changes in leadership the exchange will release this info to investors.  ie. Company failed to verify activity for 30 days or Director has not verified in 30 days .  This will of course cause company stock prices to go down you can either choose to sell stocks or keep and hold  or simply sell and buy the stocks after price has gone down if you feel the company will verify.  So you have time to choose what you will do and get notified.  If the company goes belly up and deletes then essentially the stocks are worth nothing.

    The game is based on choice if you choose to invest in a well known company with 50 members and averages 1000+ in contribs every month chances are they will not implode or a deputy will take its place. If you choose to invest in a lesser known company with 15 members since its dirt cheap then hey thats on you and your risk... But with anything nothing is guaranteed take Naver for instance who just randomly up and deleted his company after he is known for doing capricious stuff like that so again thats extreme risk. People die, have kids, get sick, lose jobs etc..  just like in Real life again nothing is guaranteed so NEVER invest more than you can afford to lose.

    Also how would you regulate a company making alts and spamming their own company with investments?

    There would be no reason to make an alt to buy a company's stock as you can simply just buy and sell from your main as many time as you want also companies do this all the time its called a stock buyback.  In regards to that they would be getting charged commissions for each share bought and sold 1 ducat to the exchange each.  So have at it buy as many as you want if they want to give the exchange free cash be my guest lol.  But heres how the stock market  works for every buyer there MUST be a seller.  So if the director wanted to increase volume of its company by buying and selling its own stock say they wanted to buy 1 million shares and sell the same 1 million shares to himself.  They would pay 1 million to buy it and an additional  1 million to sell it  which would be paid to the exchange in commission fees so essentially they would be losing money each time they do it.  Companies buy back stock all the time  but it would make sense for them to let their stock go down then buy it cheap then sell it when it goes higher so they can make a profit other than just do it to increase volume they are simply losing money on each trade.
  • CrzyPsycoChickCrzyPsycoChick Posts: 650Member Intermediate

    My qualified 'yes' was then based on the idea you could promote your company as a bank. 
    So the 'shares' are not shares as such, but rather 'deposits'. The 'IOUs' that Garuda gives out are then a bit like bank notes. (Bank notes were originally called 'promissory notes' - I promise to pay the bearer on demand ... etc). 


    I dont think it should be a bank...as the bank would need to "hold" ducats and that poses extreme risks to investors I dont like that at all :\.  I like the idea that  if an order to buy comes in we find a seller who exchanges the ducats for the shares.  A 1:1  trade that only the exchange can do.   Essentially the stock market is a just a large auction of company shares. 

    In the stock market after the intial IPO no more money is given to the company. Any money invested is on the investor that why you invest or Trade responsibly. Dont risk more that you can lose and invest in companies with history and good standing. But if you want to invest in riskier companies thats on you.  So the potential for a Penny stock to grow is great for a small investment but the risk is higher just like in the real stock market.

    It enables people to keep more cash, because their money is in "Duc-udas" (? LoL) rather than Ducats. And there is a second currency to rival the in-game currency.
    Of course that's dangerous because there would be a Duc-uda/ Ducat exchange rate. That would violate the ToS because dealing could be done outside of Papaya's control. There could be exchanges of real Dollars for in-game items. So more of a Doll-uda than a Duc-uda!!

    Hence my second 'No'.

    Hmmm.  I dont think company shares count as a second form of currency as they are still based on ducats and even if they were whats to stop people from doing it now? I mean in theory one can say  ships are a currency in game and buy and exchange them which is what they do now.   Now as far as Real Money Trade one cant control what people do outside of the game I mean guys like Savvia back on OGP made an illegal outside Real Money Trading website that got shut down hard .   So even before company shares people did it you can't stop human nature to cheat outside the game...All the  exchange can do is simply exchange shares for ducats and warn people of the risks, so what some moron decides to do outside of game is on them as long as we dont endorse it thats their own risk.  If you're dumb enough to pay a guy 1000 dollars real dollars for virtual company shares in a video game and they run off with your cash even after we tell you not to....then hey you asked for it.

    And the closely followed "Aaaggghhh"? 

    Think about it. Like CPC says it all takes a 'trusted' company. You have to trust no one will run off with your Ducats. It's with good reason our financial institutions are so closely regulated. Bankers are just pirates in suits.

    Risk vs Reward...Sure you can invest in a company with 10 members and a director nobody has ever heard of for 1 ducat a share and expect it to go up to 10k a share over time SURE  the growth potential is astronomical but the risk is great.  For a company like that I'd invest no more than maybe 5 million of my ducats something thats meaning less and I can easily replace...while a established company like it would cost alot more to invest like Garuda but for them I'd definitely invest 100mil - 500mil as the risk is lower and if I lose 500mil meh no biggie I can make it back in a day. Your risk may be les than mine you may invest 10mil its all up to you manage your own risk. Lots of people have ducats just sitting around why not make it work for you.



    No economic system is perfect and no economic system is all bad.   The "ideal"  economy is the one that takes bits and pieces of other ones where needed.  Capitalism is great but if left unchecked it can cause great harm to the society as a whole through pollution, corruption and carelessness. Capitalism falls apart when there are no more buyers to circulate money and since capitalism is based on just making more money the overall status of buyers degenerates and we fall into a recession. Same with pure Socialism being limited by the govt stifles creativity and economic expansion but regulation is heavy.   One you merge the two systems you get a wonderful balance.

    Capitalistic Greed is GOOD!  in moderation lol
  • lefox271lefox271 Posts: 495Member Intermediate
    @CPC

    I think I see more clearly now what you have in mind. 

    I think it's totally mad, but you know I think it could work. 

    One of the key drivers to making it work would be just that players have so much money they can afford to gamble it on the stock exchange. If I invest 50b in Garuda, it frees up space in my bank account to make more money, and it's just possible the value of Garuda shares might increase.

    Like you say, it could become just another aspect of the game play - something else to do.

    Of course it's 'bubble' economics. The value of the shares is not related to the asset value of the company, just to the buyer's confidence that people will keep wanting to buy into Garuda (or whatever company). The moment confidence is lost, the bubble bursts, and everybody loses everything LOL.

    I suggested above one version of it seems more like banking than stocks. It's a kind of hybrid of the two. A share certificate is essentially tradeable. I could trade 50b in shares for your ship. If people trust the shares/ company, then the shares become a form of currency.

    Neat.

    Mad! You live up to your name and reputation. (That is genuinely intended as a compliment).
  • mynamelingaamynamelingaa Posts: 11Member Beginner
    In realty the stock market is very huge, and there are many organizations supervise it without be exploited or  controlled.  Compare in the game it's far more smaller and have many limitations, "fragile" more. If want to make such a stock market, i think the most important is how to guarantee it  keep fair,  that may be a little hard. But this is a creative idea anyhow.
  • CrzyPsycoChickCrzyPsycoChick Posts: 650Member Intermediate

    LOL.  I know I'm crazy but for every instance of Progress there is always a crazy person behind it lol.  Cant move forward without progressive thinkers. So I definitely take that as a compliment.  As far as the bubble economics well thats what makes it fun I dunno the game becomes redundant when you can always tell whats going to happen thats so boring. A volatile stick market that reacts to people going inactive or getting suspended or having the most invested in ports could be that shot in the arm the game needs maybe lol.



    You are not alone everyone in this thread expressed the same concern as you how do you regulate it which is very valid... I thought of two ways you guys can let me know what you think

    Method 1: Centralized exchange for regulation 

    1.  An exchange of honest trustworthy players that have rules for trading stocks and if a company violates any rules their stock get frozen until either they pay a fine or provide correct information.


    Method 2: Forex Currency Exchange

    This idea came to me as I was reading Forex stock charts...instead of investing in companies one can invest in the game's currency instead.  This will eliminate any need for regulation as currency in game cannot be manipulated by players. The currency I speak of could be a number of trade goods in game like Gold, Silver, Platinum, Diamonds, Nanban Goods like rifles and wuxu porcelain etc.   The price of those goods are determined by the in game market place.  I'll give an example.

    Say every hour we check the price of gold in all 5 capitals market place and divide it for the average.  

    Spain  5k
    London 4k
    Pourtugal 6k
    Amsterdam 5k
    Marseilles 9k

    The average would be 5800 for a share of gold which a player can purchase from the exchange.

    Now lets say 1 hour goes by and the price of gold is now

    Spain  5k
    London 5k
    Pourtugal 7k
    Amsterdam 4k
    Marseilles 10k


    This makes the price of Gold 6200 a share which can now be sold for a profit 400 a share.  Now as players buy and sell metal in those capitals it can either go up or go down the market would also give clues as they state if a market is strong or not or crash.  So it would be wise to keep buying when prices are low and sell when high or climb a bit.  Essentially it would be trading while playing your game OR you sell metals in capitals to move the price...

    If its done in this manner you can really manipulate too much and no regulation needed.


    What do you guys think a Forex market or a Company based market is best?
  • CrzyPsycoChickCrzyPsycoChick Posts: 650Member Intermediate
    Actually its more like trading futures
  • mynamelingaamynamelingaa Posts: 11Member Beginner
    @CrzyPsycoChick

    1.  The company-stock market i don't think it's workable. One of  problems is the company itself have no any value, it can't  make any profit to give shareholders dividend. If say the company shop, that's too small and that income is just for company individual member, not the company.



    2. The in-game currency exchange is better and not so easy to be exploited.  But it's just "not so easy".  

    Example: I hold  1000000 of Nanban goods shares, now i want it's price raise up. How can i do?  First i need two groups of characters, one for buying, another for selling. Next, i use my selling group begin to sweep all the Nanban goods  i can find in the company shops or bazaars,  example:average price is 70000.  Then i sell those for 80000, but who will buy?  right, it's my buying group !  Do this many times from two groups, just in several hours,  i can raise the price to much higher. Now i can sell all my shares to get huge profit.  At last there are many Nanban goods rest in my hand, i can chose a time sell those all to market in lower price to crush down Nanban share then i can buy it again.    

    Through out the process, all i need is two groups characters and thousands dollars(for exchange to in-game money).  This is just a simple mode, many details can be improved and the market is more complexity also.

    TO sum, the in-game economy system still too small compare reality, in some other games the in-game exchange has already become a way of money laundering.
  • CrzyPsycoChickCrzyPsycoChick Posts: 650Member Intermediate
    The company-stock market i don't think it's workable. One of  problems is the company itself have no any value, it can't  make any profit to give shareholders dividend. If say the company shop, that's too small and that income is just for company individual member, not the company.

    The company would have value in the  aspect that  every share traded or sold  1 ducat would be set aside for the company as revenue.  So the more reputable and well known a company is the more investors it would have hence why the more people who trade it the more "Net worth" the said company would have and this would be disclosed to investors.   

    Say you purchased 50 thousand shares of a company at 1000 ducats each for 50mil you would pay a small 3 ducats for every share for commission fees total of 150k.  The company would get 50k in "revenue"  while the broker would keep the rest.  Then When you sell your shares another 3 ducats each so the company would profit 100k altogether. This 100k would be the company's net income from your trade so imagine tons of buyers and sellers a day it wouldnt be uncommon for a company to gain millions in a day.  As with all stocks if the company does well  the more people will invest the worse the less people will invest and thus lose  stock value.   As  Lefox  pointed out it would be based on buyer confidence in that company better company higher price stock  weaker company  lesser price stock.  ie.  company drops from 48 members to 40 members or seeing company drop from rank 4 to rank 20 or hear the company is #1 investor at ports all that could contribute


    Example: I hold  1000000 of Nanban goods shares, now i want it's price raise up. How can i do?  First i need two groups of characters, one for buying, another for selling. Next, i use my selling group begin to sweep all the Nanban goods  i can find in the company shops or bazaars,  example:average price is 70000.  Then i sell those for 80000, but who will buy?  right, it's my buying group !  Do this many times from two groups, just in several hours,  i can raise the price to much higher. Now i can sell all my shares to get huge profit.  At last there are many Nanban goods rest in my hand, i can chose a time sell those all to market in lower price to crush down Nanban share then i can buy it again.  


    What you described is here is exactly how I expect it to play out and  this would simulate the real stock market of ups and downs no market can stay low or stay high forever this volatility will help assets(Stocks) be more liquid and easy to sell.  Just like in this stock chart you can even look at charts to kind of get to know when a market tends to crash or stagnate(Support and Resistance)

    image

    Heres why I say it balances out.  While a group with large trade amounts can crash the market or boost the market the game mechanics limits it.  When you crash a market The price cant go lower for a period of time no matter how much you buy or sell this can be a time to make a move as an investor if you act FAST.  Then it gradually goes up over time.  Also when a good is popular the price will rise this is where you need to sell and take profits the market keeper tells you whats going on so you can prepare.  In addition there are tons of others in the game who sell things too So its not one group manipulating prices for everyone at will.  Then On top of that a group cant do this for every single type of future its hard to crash Gold, Diamonds, Ham, Pepper, Musk, Maca, Tobacco and Gunpowder at every single capital every single moment lol.  Its simply impossible when you have different types of goods there will be up days  and down days its simply the way stocks work.


    You can play it a number of ways 
    1. Long term wait for a crash Then Buy up shares then wait for it to go all the way up over a long period of time Then Sell or wait till its kinda high then short the market (Position Trader)

    2. Buy when its averagely or low priced and sell as soon as you see it go up a good amount and sell it or if the market keeper is saying a  crash is coming short sell it all within a day.( Day Trader)

    3.Lurk around the market keeper and see how he reacts to different types of goods to try to buy in and go long or short the market and get in and get out when you see these major moves happen(Scalper)

    All these different play styles would make it too hard to manipulate at will.

    Its exciting dont you think? It would add a whole new level of gameplay and many new ways to play
  • mynamelingaamynamelingaa Posts: 11Member Beginner
    The second way(currency-exchange) is better. If you can make  it successfully, that will be a  significant achievement.
  • CrzyPsycoChickCrzyPsycoChick Posts: 650Member Intermediate
    Thanks for the input ok I'll start with currency and see how it goes... I will try to do some dry runs of it this weekend.  A worldwide trading network that can be accessed anywhere and doesn't need cargo space...I think is the future of trading and since it is still based on the ducat, it won't make normal trading obsolete.


    My Vision

    Player is about to go sea battle  they see the price of Gold drop to 25% at 10k each they purchase 10,000 shares for 100mil...they sail to new foundland and sea battle for 2 hours then while there over World Chat they see the price of gold has shot up to 50% to 12,500k each they then sell their shares from new foundland instantly over WorldCat and make 125mil.  In essense, anyone can make cash anywhere while still enjoying their game if they purchase stock.


    My hope it is so popular people in the middle of a pirate attack will stop fighting and immediately rush to buy or sell shares if the prices are good enough lol.
  • LodianLodian Posts: 3Member Beginner
    I like it. Liquidity may be an issue, also having an honest broker who would be trusted enough to hold the money.
    Would you make it a 24/7 market or would you have a fixed price determination point so , hourly or 6 hourly/daily someone updates the latest prices?

    Lodi
  • CrzyPsycoChickCrzyPsycoChick Posts: 650Member Intermediate
    @Lodian


    Wow Lodian is back?! What year is it? Lol. Finally I dont feel so old anymore lol Welcome back Lo 

    Heres what I was thinking if its Futures trading the prices will move 24/7 minus maintenance because the market keeper  remains open 24/7. After hours you would see prices move less drastically as most players are not awake at say 3am in the morning but none the less they can move as different time zones can play. 

    Trading Hours:
    The time period for trading im thinking should be like maybe an hour or two a day no holidays and maybe 2 or three hours on Saturday MAYBE Sunday too...Ideally  Monday Wednesday and Friday would be awesome.

    How the Exchange works: 
    As far as holding money this would be very difficult as a stock exchange Could quite possibly have well over 100 bill at one time then couldn't take more orders. Theres 4 possible ways to fix this 

     1. No money is taken until an actual purchase of stock ie. Once buyer is present then money is transferred like a one to one trade

     2. Have multiple members of the exchange take stock orders maybe two or 3 people they can hold tons of cash

     3. My favorite. Players do their own trading and only come to the exchange to finalize the trade. Ie. You purchase stock from the exchange say 1000 shares of gold at 5k and you pay the commission fee to the exchange say 100k and then the shares and the amount it was purchased at is recorded no other money is given. Then when you do your own shouts and when you find a seller contact the exchange to transfer the money and ownership of the shares  

    4. Exchange only sells a finite amount of shares at a time ie. Only can have 22 billion in shares in cash on hand to exchange

    1 is doable, 2 is dependent in someone else, 3 is ideal 4. Is ok but could cause liquidity issues in which if Im full of money I cant buy more shares . In leaning on 3 with perhaps the exchange also helping to find a buyer. 


    Trustworthy Players:
    Could start a credit bureau to rate players credit to work in the exchange. This could give a player tremendous power so im a little reluctant to do this as essentially the bureau could destroy anyone's credit. So im leaning toward asking already trusted players or just do it my self my only with doing it all by my self is...if I get sick or my pc breaks I dont want a multi bullion dollar economy to grind to halt until I get back so I would love some help.


    I know you're good with numbers Lodian any suggestions or concerns would be helpful  before the official Go Live with this stock exchange.
  • CulvernCulvern Posts: 646Member Intermediate
    Way to complex and takes away from the actual game play of the game. So complex I only read 10% of the forum post and got bored.
    I am sure there is a stock trader game out there somewhere for you.

  • CrzyPsycoChickCrzyPsycoChick Posts: 650Member Intermediate

    Its complex but not complex for the buyer and seller but complex for me to run.


    All the above is mainly for me as the broker/ architect of stock trading

    But for the normal players its simply...
     
    Say how many shares you want 
    buy them 
    watch the markets  
    sell when you see the price going up.   

    Or sell your shares short when you see it going down or think its going down. Thats not hard right?

    You can even do it while you're nanbanning or sea battling like...ETrade


    The ease of it is really dependent on the player some will simply wait until price go up and sell...some will make charts to map out the average move of prices some will wait at markets to see the exact price moves and some may even try to use real life stock patterns... All that is fine and good but not necessary to participate.
  • CrzyPsycoChickCrzyPsycoChick Posts: 650Member Intermediate
    Heres a question


    Would any of you be more or less willing to participate in UWO stock trading if you were given free stock to start out with?


    Like if you buy 1000 shares of Gold persay you get 1000 shares free so essentially a way to double your investment right from the start.  Promotion for like 1 week.


    Would that motivate any of you to participate?
  • CulvernCulvern Posts: 646Member Intermediate
    Could we all buy 10b worth to receive an additional 10b worth for free? Which we can sell immediately back to double our cash?
    Every player will line up for that. Who is going to cash that? Will need trillions the first 5 mins.....

    If the cash not backed by papaya and only buy you the broker what guarantee does anyone have that at some point you just stop playing rendering everyone's share worthless? No offense but I dont think your reputation is strong enough anymore to warrant such faith.
  • CrzyPsycoChickCrzyPsycoChick Posts: 650Member Intermediate

    Can you buy 10 bil shares and get 10b free? No I said 1000 shares as like a starter promotion.  Why would I offer such a large amount?  In addition one could purchase that much I dont recommend it just like in the stock market you need someone to sell to. 10b in stocks is not very liquid unless you are offering a high amount.

    To be skeptical...thats fair
    To have concerns about it being overly complex...thats fair
    To feel there are better stock games out there...thats fair probably true
    To feel you only want things backed officially by papaya...totally fine and completely understandable and your choice


    To say my reputation isnt strong enough anymore...now I have to draw the line there. Not only is that completely inaccurate its down right slanderous.

    Who in this game has been more trustworthy with people items, money and ships than me besides Caddy? Who? Name them...

    I mean everytime this game has closed down from netmarble, OGPlanet to Papaya I've always closed out my auction accounts and nobody has ever said Crzy has scammed or didnt give me my money or items.  I have literally thousands of documented excel spreadsheet  auction transactions with named to keep track of it all.  When Saul/ Coolwind became the only GM of this game back on OGP I suspended  my entire auction business giving up tens of billions of ducats I could have made just so nobody got screwded if he began targetting me...which he did 5 months later before he fired

    What more do I have to do? Honestly what more would I have to prove? I would NEVER leave anyone high and dry whether its auctions or stock markets I wouldnt be able to live it down thats me thats Crzy... To hear that coming from you whom I've auctioned for before in the past is ESPECIALLY hurtful :/


    In conclusion:
    Regardless if you read the above explanations of the market instead of skipping it I stated I dont want to be holding peoples cash and would rather do exchange at time of transaction that way Im not holding people's cash in case I get hurt or sick and cant log in. That way they lose nothing substantial if I ever were unable to return besides the small commission fee for the sale of stock like the commission fee for 250bil of stock at 50k shares would only be 250k in fess which is nothing. I just want to do something fun thats all not pull a Bernie Madoff :/.
  • purplepiratepurplepirate Posts: 800Member Intermediate
    "Playing Devil's advocate" here but i don't think culvern ment you are a dishonest person. For people whom have played along time, we know you and know that you are honest trader but many of those old time players have moved on. Now the game has a large influx of newer players, most of which have never heard of you. It's hard enough as a new player to make money when first starting off let alone entrust what little earnings they made up to that point in a system of uncertainty. I think Koei would have to scrip some major changes for a stock system to work fairly in this game. It can already get unbalanced between top pro's and new players when it comes to wealth in this game.
    IGN: Samantha99
  • CrzyPsycoChickCrzyPsycoChick Posts: 650Member Intermediate
    @purplepirate


    Thats not the way culvern framed it. If he would have said I trust you but will newer people know to trust you or even I dont want to take the risk just in case you leave the game totally fine and cool with that...The your reputation isnt strong enough anymore is whats slanderous. Your Rep is your rep PERIOD and the only way to diminish ones rep is to do something to compromise your own rep. Whether Newer people know me or not my reputation and deeds remain the same as I never did anything to betray it. Some new players may not be knowledgeable of all the deeds but my Rep is still the same and someone will know of them. So I strongly refute his statement.

    Now if he meant it the way you're saying and I misinterpreted it thats fine he can clarify but he certainly did not frame it the way you said it as it came off as way more nefarious.



    As far as new players the game will always have new players but the core of this game is returning long time players always has been. Most of the people in this forum I've known for years through good times and bad times whether its through guides I've written, forum posts I've made, auctions I've done and fights I've had lol. CPC will always be known here somebody will know me somewhere and then they'll tell the newer players and the cycle continues.

    Look in this thread even Lodian was here the very first English Marechal ever on this server and leader of Sea Legion... Im a 3rd Gen player meaning I've been playing through 3 providers Netmarble, OGP, and Papaya I think Lodian is 4th Gen he came from Gpotato and I think 5th Gen people playing from Beta that may be Stinker or Boomstick. I bring that up to say the old players are a constant in this game NOBODY truly quits UWO and we all know of each other thats what makes UWO great the lore the legends and the rich history. This is what keeps players names alive the tales from the veterans and they will say the same of you one day purplepirate just as you now know of Lodian. :)

    Legends in UWO can never truly Quit...Legends in UWO can Never truly die.
  • purplepiratepurplepirate Posts: 800Member Intermediate
    @CPC I agree with you that " Your Rep is your rep" , and i can't say for sure what he meant. To me anyways it sounded more like concern since you can't be online 24/7 to run a system like this. He even said...

    "NO offence but I dont think your reputation is strong enough anymore".

    This statement implies that indeed you are were well known and trusted but now the game population has changed more to people that didn't play back then. You have a son now and can't be online as much as well as you don't run regular auctions anymore like you used to for people to know you now.

      It's true what he sais about the need for papaya to back the cash that would be invested in this system, after all what 'if' for what ever reason you need to take a hiatus from the game? Maybe the answer to this is to have a system like "Uber" where anyone can sign up and be a broker and make a small percentage from deals they do, then all the investments would be kept in a central bank that would be linked to the company that was invested into.
    IGN: Samantha99
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