@HeavyWater thx for the reply, ok some follow up questions...
1 In MBL where there are ENORMOUS prizes on the line, do you think for a moment people would not be using their best equipment and ships? **Precisely**.
but wouldn't that mean that people would also be using melee gear for those that do it? i'm sure there's more people in this game that use melee gear then just her. If nobody used melee fighting then this super brave set you talk about wouldn't be so high value since nobody would use it?
2 The fact that you call what she has shown “evidence” is exactly where you have been misled. No serious PvPer takes this thread seriously because we all know how ridiculous it would be to try to kill people in melee in MSF with cheaper gear. She is trying to “cherry pick”, in her words, ships as a standalone thing where they cannot be discussed alone BECAUSE her chosen method of obtaining “proof” is melee where gear is far more important than ship as long as you have WMB which can be inherited.
I get that but she said she could use the same ship with the top cannon gear and be just as effective as other top shooters so i don't get why the gear/ship combo is an issue since you said that people will use their best stuff in question 1 not cheap gear. wouldn't you have the same shooting skils in a low tier ship as a top tier? Are guns more effective in better ships or more effective with better gear?
3 I myself choose to use a lower tier ship, one that costs far less than her gear, and I fare fine in ESF and other PvP events. I am proof myself. I choose to use a sail ship vs phantom monster despite rowers being by far the better option. If anyone is to prove such an argument as “you don’t need top tier ship” it is me. However there is no argument to prove because this “stigma” she speaks of is invented. No one says that.
isnt this thread is suppose to be about fighting in low tier ships? Isn't that what she's doing or am I missing something? If there no difference in fighting in low tier ships than what's the point of all this and why are upper ships so expensive then?
4The problem I have with this thread is her perpetuation of the idea that gear is not relevant. Gear is very relevant regardless of whether you do cannon or melee. It is required for cannon battle to boost your skills to cut through the very high durability, armour and evasion many top PvPers run. For melee it gives you more stat pure and simple, and that stat is all that matters in melee and is the only reason she gets any melee kills in MSF.
gear is important, it makes up the character right? Even as a new player that should be obvious but she didn't say it wasn't important, just not to this topic. So what happens if she follows though with what she said about doing another test in melee using only ingame gear? She did say it wasn't likely to succeed but that she would look into trying it. I think that would be interesting to see how that come out.
I don't know dude, it kinda sounds like you two are arguing about the same thing but just from 2 different views.
Sure, there are people who wear melee gear, although cannon battle is generally considered more interesting/fun/effective than clicking melee skill every 5 sec so not many people do solely melee. Anima used to have a couple of people who would have ships fitted with Roaring Sea Mine and try to melee after proccing it, but now telescope is so powerful and therefore popular, most of their fleet just uses that. I'm not sure which part is confusing. My point is that the two (ships and gear) and not exclusive and you cannot discuss solely ships when talking about killing people using melee.
I'm not sure about "just as effective" but can definitely get kills with lower tier ship and decent gear, I do. The gear/ship combo is an issue because Sam's "proof" of a low tier ship killing people in melee involves using top tier gear. If you're going to spend that much on gear what's the difference between spending it on ship instead? What was the whole point of her post if her "proof" is meaningless? Seems like just attention-seeking personally since there are much better arguments for using lower tier ships. Guns are more effective with better gear as better gear will boost your cannon ranks and evasion rank more. Guns are also more effective with a better ship that can withstand more damage (since in melee you take reduced durability damage, thus low durability/armour is less of an issue) and you move faster which makes it significantly easier to critically hit others.
There is a difference, but not an absolutely enormous one. Upper ships are so expensive because the economy in this game is ridiculous and the issues with it are perpetuated by both players and KOEIPaya alike. The thread is about fighting in lower tier ships but I will re-iterate for the 4000th time that you cannot speak of battle in a lower tier ship without speaking of gear. If she attempted melee battle in ESF and BC against well-equipped/shipped players with low tier gear instead of her fully forged and transmuted ISE/superior brave pieces, she would have zero effect. Unfortunately this only gets worse as new gear and ships are released which are stronger and stronger and also more and more expensive. But as it is, can get away with some lower tier stuff, but saying you're using a "low tier" ship while also using hundreds of billions of ducats of gear is meaningless and everyone knows this.
"she didn't say it wasn't important, just not to this topic" unfortunately that is my point. It is important precisely TO this topic, if she claims it isn't then that's intetionally misleading/lying.
If I use the best possible cannon gear, with refitted grand seraphims or MGHP 18s and telescope while in FS survey frigate (a very low tier ship that has evade melee battle so could avoid getting easily wiped by wallet melee), I'm sure I could kill many people. But what does that mean?
If you have to use a low tier ship because you can't afford it. Why would you be able to afford expensive cannons and gear?
What does this post mean to such a person? Nothing. It means absolutely nothing to the kinds of people it claims to be trying to support.
If I were incapable of affording any decent ship or gear I would personally be insulted. Seeing this person with superior brave gear and royal neapolitan galleass trying to pretend she is anything like me or knows anything about my feelings or my difficulties. It's offensive to suggest it's the same thing by ignoring the relevance and cost of gear.
@HeavyWaterMy focus in this thread is purely to stop you spreading lies and misinformation about how battle works. That's all.
Just as I said, you're not here for real discussions, you're only here because you're pissed at me personally, not the topic it's about.
@JayburnerAnd if people use top cannon gear then who cares if she wants to use melee gear, it it part of combat. I don't see the difference here so please someone explain it!
There is no difference Jay, he's just upset because i made him rage quit in some battle lol. Sup Brave gear is expensive because all the parts have the highest att/def stats of any gear and give max skills offered at +3. There's cannon gears that also give high skills but not as much att/def, but you don't need att/def if you are fighting with guns. Using all the best gun gear will also add up to be extremely expsensive once you forge/transmute all the parts, not as expsensive but still alot. It's true that not many people do melee compared to cannon combat but the boost gun gear gives in battle is really no different than melee versions. Even without telescope, cannons can kill you in one shot with max skills alone just like how melee gear will allow you to defeat your opponent quicker in melee. It just depends on your play style but guns are just as effective in low tier ships. Melee is actually more effective the larger ship you use due to the much higher crew available to fight with not in the ship I've been using in this thread.
My “real discussions” are above. If you have no response then that isn’t my problem.
If you are right then explain what this post means to someone who uses a low tier ship solely because they **can’t afford** a better one. We’ve established melee isn’t an option because they won’t have strong enough gear to overcome a better ship. So actually cannons are a more viable option, especially given the price difference of cannon gear to melee gear and that forging/transmuting isn’t required, although even the price of 20s compared with other cannons can be daunting the difference is still only a few billion extra, not hundreds. But instead you made some post that makes such bold claims about “proof” and when refuted ignore the argument.
Sounds like forfeiting but if you have a proper response beyond name-calling you’re welcome to try.
MBL server can only be graced by your presence in the new year? Not now?
You claimed to be more credible due to your use of the forums, Jayburner even believed that ridiculous statement. I guess it wasn’t obvious no one uses these forums because they’re a joke to people because of exactly these kinds of posts.
If you had any real thoughts and discussion to have you would bring it to the MBL server where all the real PvPers are since that is where the PvP with actual rewards is. Sounds a lot like the “pvp community”, but you tell me I’m not in that so I must be mistaken and this is all a fevered dream, one where I participated in MBL and you… did not. You are not in any of the recorded footage I saw or in the server as I see. Why does being a forums warrior in a joke forum make you more credible?
Use your keyboard skills to fight in PvP instead of forums then maybe we can see, yes?
I can assure you, and please understand this. I am not here because I’m upset at you personally, just that I dislike this post’s self-important invention of a “stigma” that doesn’t exist, then providing a fake solution which is insulting to the people it pretends to solve the problem for.
Who are you helping with your post? Someone living in a shack while driving a fleet of sports cars doesn’t need your help. Those people could just sell one or two and buy a better house.
If you can afford all this expensive melee gear why would you need to use a low tier ship?
Who are you helping with your post outside of your own ego?
But as you seem so focussed at avoiding logic in this post I assume you will discount my opinion cause I just so happen to disagree with you, claiming to be part of the pvp despite being part of a team that relies on Everlast to even stand a chance even against the Dutch!!
Ok, now you sound like a reasonable person who wants to have a discussion. This I can respect and i don't believe I used any 'name calling'. I haven't disagreed with you that i use top tier equipment and in fact I mentioned that gear makes up part of the character because it's the only way to get to max stats.
This thread was more about low vs high ships, the 'gear' issue i was going tackle in a different thread so I could cover ALL gears that way, top/low/uwc and in game both melee and cannon. Comparing gears is far more complex discussion, you should know that. I didn't want to talk about gear because although I have some high end gun gear i haven't gotten enough to properly be effective nor do i have any decent damage guns which are a must.
It is true that I haven't done any MBL yet but I have reason for that, i work most weekends early when the first 2 seasons have been held. I make Saturday ESF because i get home about an hourish before it starts so I can play. I can't help this as I need the money for school. It was suggested to me to join a team as a 'stand by' but most fleets are mostly looking for people who show every week, not once in awhile. This year I've heard that they are changing the format for it and i hope that include more flexible times and days (Sundays are best for me). So hopefully you will see me this year because I genuinely want to play.
There no ego here and my <3 i use in battle is meant as a "no hard feelings" gesture. You can't deny that there are some toxic players in the game that rip into people and call them names when they sink someone, especially if they are new and weak. I genuinely feel bad when when I get caught in melee with a noobie which shows when i see how low their stats are once in battle. Ofc I know I'm going to crush them but in ESF it is a competition and i have to try to win for our fleet. Once i identify a noobie I've even apologized for having to sink them this way sometimes.
Disregarding your previous hostility and personal attacks, and the way you've really ignored what I said in my above post, I'll talk here about the viability of low tier ships and gear in PvP (with specific regard to ESF as it's the most open/welcoming of the PvP events IMO.
But first some responses:
My point, as I've said many times, is that you cannot logically separate ships from gear when discussing PvP performance. The two are inherently linked. Instead, for the purposes of getting the highest performance for lowest cost, the discussion of which benefits newer and poorer players, both should be discussed together. I can say straight up, cannon gameplay can achieve higher performance at significantly lower cost than melee, which is why I think your original "evidence" is kinda bogus, but that's okay because we can move on from that and discuss it anew which I will do shortly.
I too struggled with the time of MBL. I start work at 5 am on Sundays, which is Saturday for everyone else in the world. This puts MBL only a few hours before that shift. In fact ESF days 2 and 3 are also at horrible times for me. My point was less about your lack of participation, but your gatekeeping of the "PvP community", claiming I'm not part of it and lack all knowledge and experience when I can and have clearly demonstrated otherwise.
Honestly I've heard the opposite from several players about your choice of targets, but I'm not interested in arguing about anyone's particular playstyle because it detracts from the points being made here, so will take you at your word.
So, the viability of low tier ships and gear in PvP.
I'll first say I am extremely disappointed with the new cove. Light round was already pretty bad, with double shot 20s and telescope meaning it is extremely easy to kill ships with simple broadside shots or combo shots. Stronger and stronger ships which won't be reasonably available to poorer and newer players are not the answer. Then you have the Elite Commander's Caravel. Personally this addition disgusts me, even more disgusting to hear CA say they're "glad" it was added. Standard was IMO always the most balanced and fairest round for all. It was the one I performed best in and had the most fun playing. I am extremely disappointed to see a standard ship which now has superior stats to heavy ships (see Vaisseau and Super Frigate). The only separation now is gunports (4 vs 5).
I don't care how much money you have, or how much money you spend on the game, no one can reasonably see this addition as gladdening or fair or fun or healthy for the game. No one. Anyone who does is delusional (i.e. not reasonable).
If they want to add new UWC ship, sure, do that. But why does it always have to be more and more OP? Why can't it be the same quality as current ships, but different types? I know people would like to see a Superior Commander's Sambuk, Superior Commander's Corvette, Superior Commander's Galley perhaps. Why not give people more choices instead of constantly stronger stronger stronger? Ridiculous and disappointing decision from KOEIPaya. Ships like Commander's Corvette are already struggling. The new caravel has +290 base durability over Commander's Corvette, over double the base armour and 100 base sailors compared with a mere 42... Really, truely saddening for anyone who hoped to be able to simply build an FS ship and participate in Standard round with some hope of fairness and balance.
This all aside I will now speak solely of heavy round as the other two are conclusively ruined IMO.
Heavy round has many, many issues, but with higher overall stats certain things balance out a bit, e.g. you have a biiiit more leeway with 1 shots if you're running defence skills (will come back to this because it's basically not true anymore).
Melee gameplay using cheap gear is very difficult as FS ships or low tier UWC ones simply don't have the crew sizes of the more expensive ones, and then the kind of difference you get from using cheaper gear to using the most expensive gear is enormous. Thus, on a budget, melee should be avoided altogether. This isn't entirely possible since turtles no longer have 100% melee evade, but the current evade functions as 70% IIRC. The screenshot shared earlier in this thread of a fleet of low-tier turtle ships and a survey frigate (which is the only not-expensive heavy ship that can have evade melee as an optional skill) is a great example of this. If any of these ships are caught in melee they will suffer greatly, even to those not entirely geared for melee, but the ability to avoid it most of the time will help a lot. Another solution is to use a ship that has Welcome Melee Battle and Attack Prevention Net. Defence stat is very hard to gain in melee without these two skills (primarily Welcome Melee Battle), however the mechanics behind WMB in particular are a bit obtuse and require losing crew ability in order to proc the effect, so really melee overall makes this a very daunting and unfun experience for newer/inexperienced players but those skills or evade melee are the best advice I can offer there.
Regarding cannon gameplay: Cannons are the fairer (will come back to this) battle IMO (and very likely in the opinions of most as it is clearly significantly less affected by cost of ship and gear than melee is). With the sheer power of 20-port cannons, 1 shotting can be achieved more consistently depending on your specific choice of cannons (carronades and double shot in particular are very strong for ingame cannons), but players using high tier gear and ships will have very high durability and armour on their ships alongside high rank or maxed evasion which makes 1-shotting with lower skill ranks difficult. Additionally aide shot-type defence skills exist which will greatly reduce the damage from a particular shot type, with double-shot defence being widely available.
I said I would come back to a note on defence skills. In my personal experience, due to telescope (which I will specifically discuss more later), defence skills are almost as worthless as ducats now. Richer players using cannons such as RGS can 1 shot a mid-tier ship (e.g. mine) through chain shot defence skill. This is because the telescope, not only reverses the damage falloff ranges, but also adds damage at all ranges. Funny how practically everyone is using it now, huh? (I and the people I usually fleet with in ESF personally don't, will come back to that later)
The reason cannon gameplay in general is fairer is because there is much more initiative to be taken by the player, much more ability to express skill, than can be found in melee where the outcome is practically pre-decided by who has more stats at the beginning (the game pretends there is some "rock paper scissors" involved with the melee skills but if you have even a meagre stat advantage, even a direct, repeated skill counter does nothing in my experience). High tier ships do have an advantage in cannon gameplay, I said this in one of my first posts in this thread, but there is still more room for expression of skill as Havok also suggested. That's the key point here expression of skill, the ability to overcome stat/wealth disadvantage through outplay and occasional luck.
Much of cannon gameplay seems at first glance to involve 1-shots, but not always. And that's okay. I don't often 1 shot in heavy round but you can work with your teammates, utilising not-1-shots and mines as well to chip away at enemy max durability and eventually sink them if you can survive long enough (which is where defence skills and also just experience/skill in dodging will be of great assistance).
There are three key parts to the turd-pile that is telescope.
As mentioned earlier it provides additional damage which simply could not be otherwise achieved and can allow 1 shot through defence skills where it was previously not possible and this is disgusting.
It is not available to everyone (especially poorer players) as, due to its power, it is highly demanded by those rich PvPers who wish to maximise their winrate by using the best possible gear, which I cannot and do not blame them for necessarily. Which means it is expensive. Imagine a poorer player already struggling to afford a ship, cannons, parts and gear, then needing to spend so much on telescope as well just to be competitive. Sickening.
The single biggest issue is the fact that it is an unfun addition to the game. The fundamentals of battle are there, always have been. Key word: fundamentals. I discussed some of the fundamentals above although can't go into too much detail on them here. Teamwork, dodging, tactics, positioning. The telescope is an addition to the game, an unnecessary one, that destroys this fundamental gameplay that we've all enjoyed for so many years. Dodging effectively for example, relies so much on controlling specific angles so you know where you can turn and still be safe from critical hits. The telescope means there are now so many more angles you can be in danger from, even from across the ring. It pains me beyond belief, to see people trying out ESF and finding it unfun because they couldn't even see who killed them. This is only made worse by the addition of cannons such as MGHP 18 with their absurd range and piercing power. Shortly before telescope was released I saw an influx of new players to ESF. I see none of those now. In fact it is well-known a variety of PvPers have quit since its release. What a sad situation.
This feeling of lack of control and agency in battle is not fun for those being targeted by it.
In any other game, this is a clear balance issue and would be immediate cause for review and fixing. Here, it is being further encouraged by KOEIPaya with the lack of fixes and the addition of things such as MGHP 18s.
When everyone is using a specific item in a game, real developers look at how this affects the game and how it makes players feel. I can provide material which evidences this in other games if required but it's common knowledge and common sense.
The telescope isn't fun even for users, hence why some refuse to use it. I tried it the first ESF after it was released and honestly everything was a lot easier, I got many, many kills very easily. But it wasn't fun. I recall an uproar on every side, even those who would usually be at odds agreeing it was a terrible addition. Yet it remains ingame and as strong as ever. Those who still use it I can't blame as it's reasonable to want every advantage, but it saddens me still.
I recently sent a support ticket as Papaya 5 months ago said they would gather opinions and make a decision on it. They never communicated anything since then so I inquired further and made my points. The response was that new options to "help combat" the telescope would be available eventually.
Anyone with any sense should be greatly concerned by this.
They will remove the skill from cannon gameplay (what is left of it anyway after telescope) and turn it into rock paper scissors.
If they have telescope, we must have X. If we have X they must have Y. If they have Y we must have Z.
And where does this leave the new player, or the poor player? Confused, upset and frustrated in an unplayable PvP environment.
The telescope was just the first poison. If these destructive additions to fundamental combat continue, PvP will only get worse and worse. If people think it is already inaccessible to new and/or poorer players, then I don't want to imagine what it will be like with more such additions.
So, bringing this back to the topic of low-tier PvP gameplay. As I've mentioned it is difficult now and will only get more difficult.
But I will discuss options for a poorer player:
Several battle ships have recently received durability buffs, many were missed which is disappointing and I have asked that those be fixed, will see if that ever happens.
Renown is still likely the best option for a cheap PvP ship, but at least with these buffs there is some more choice, great! Should have happened a long time ago. Additionally these ships also had their levels reduced which makes them further more accessible, also a good decision.
UWC ships are a bit hard to go into, there are some decent "low tier" options, but these have faded greatly with time and with new high tier additions and probably aren't worth the prices anymore and with the FS buffs it's probably better off to buy an FS one. I can discuss UWC choices further in another post if required however.
Ingame gear is the best it has ever been, especially for cannons. The Sea Monster's Evil Spear with its 100 attack (craftable), +2 accuracy/ballistics is an amazing weapon for PvP and has been widely used at points by the entire community. The Sea Dragon's Demon Sword is also a very good option with +2 accuracy +3 ballistics albeit lesser attack than the spear, unless forged.
Additionally, Sea Monster's Robes and Sea Dragon's Plate Armours are great cannon-boosting ingame gears with okay melee stats (mostly defence focused and with the best versions of the Sea Dragon armour having +3 pene/+2 ballistics and +2 gunnery.
The Sea Dragon armours will be more expensive than the Sea Monster's Robes which are really quite cheap, but both are in fairly decent availability depending on how much Sea of Wonders farming is currently ongoing. (Anyone is welcome to message me (Rufas) ingame about any phantom monster equipment at any time, be it to purchase or just to ask questions, I also have a discord server which has a ton of info on sea of wonders with specific focus on the phantom monster fights and rewards).
(I realise I didn't touch on melee gear because I really think it should be avoided if you can't afford UWC gear but again if someone wants more info please pm me or ask here.)
Hopefully this info helps someone. Sorry it was all so long. Let me know what you think.
So, here is why spending so much on a ship is the last thing you need to worry about when you are getting into pvp. top tier ships are unreliable when you do not have the gear to back it up, but same time, so is a low tier ship or a fs ship for that matter. The actual point is that you should be spending your hard earned money getting the gear to be able to boost your skill ranks up before even worrying about a top end ship. which like what was said earlier, 200 ct for a gear set is alot cheaper than 500 ct for a top uwc ship(which isnt needed in all reality to be able to compete with the top maritimers as i have proved myself with a FS renown using in game made guns.) The gear goes with you from ship to ship as was mentioned before, so its a far more valuable long term investment than a top uwc ship that wont be top tier uwc ship for long with how they release the new top ships. At the end of the day also, it is also the long grind and hard work that Sam has done that compliments her gear and playstyle that even allows her to take a low end ship and melee out these top tier ships. The bottom line is that before worrying about a top tier 500 ct ship, you should worry about grinding your skills, getting the gear you need to get, and learn the playstyle you enjoy the most. TBH Sam would be devasting in an FS ship that is out atm called the Whydah. FS ship with 350 crew, with her melee capabilities, and her gear set. I wouldnt want to lock into melee with her at all in that ship. And for the record I am in a renown, and i have been in melee with Sam, and I have lasted more than 3 rounds and gotten out of the melee each time.
Skills>Gear>Ship.
thats the order of how someone should be approaching things, because until they get the skills and the gear(whether top gear or just good gear for what they need to do) the ship that they use does not matter as the person can not use the ship at its full potential.
and anyone who says a FS ship is always a one shot, hasnt been in a FS ship with max refined steering.
@HeavyWater Who's this thread directed to? Well pretty much everyone since being on a public forum grants many different perspectives to emerge. From your views about the telescope to havoks input from his experience using fs ships, all adds to what people take away with them when they read it, the more they can learn the better. Newer people who haven't played as long as others can gain great insight from many perspectives to help them get a better grasp on the game mechanics while experienced players can also learn and quell curiosity from experiments like havok and I have done that they wouldn't devote the time to try themselves. Although many vets may have and use telescope, there's still always some that haven't gotten it or don't use it for whatever reason. I have a telescope but I don't use since i'm a close range fighter, not long range where it's most effective. But yes your views are valuable.
As for your original points, the first was the about my use of uwc gear and me 'hiding' that fact to get my results. You are right in the sense that gear does play a factor in my wins but there was nothing hidden about it since it was clearly stated right from the start. I was using my best gear against others who were using their best gear so everything was equal, this was stated in the first post. The only difference was the type of ship that was being used, i was using the low tier against their upper tier. The gear was irrelevant because if I was using a upper tier ship i still would be using the same equipment. So even in a better ship, my win rate should be higher since the ship is better duras (and my melee stats would be alot higher with larger crew numbers).
Every person (except for you) who's read this thread has understood that although gear does play a factor, that this has been about ship comparison not gear, which is why nobody else has supported your . Every post from greywolf, ranger and jayburner to havoks contributions have understood that gear is a separate topic and not what the focus of this thread was about. Goldfx, who made the first post in this thread refuted my findings but even he came from the perspective of ships not gear, all of this was clearly stated in the first post, not one person has argued in support of your issues. I'm sorry if you have read into something that's not there but there was nothing hidden. I even admitted that I don't use full superior setup but use a mixed gear setup so my stats (and value of setup) is much lower than what it could be if I actually used all the top items. No where in my post did i ever say I was using low end gear, you actually added that to the thread "I'll talk here about the viability of low tier ships and gear in PvP". I was only testing ships at the start and made it clear that I didnt' have enough info on low end ingame gear but when it came to melee anyways i doubted ingame gear would be effective.
On the topic of cost comparison of high end melee gear vs the cost of top tier ships, you are correct that both costs can get expensive or newer players and yes the total cost of the full superior set fully forged/transmuted is much higher than any ship. But my cost isn't as high since I stated that I didn't use the full set. I also listed affordable alternatives to the sup set (ISE, surg rongfu, mamc) which are nowhere near the cost of the top set but are just as competitive. People can go though many ships in the time they play this game but gear pretty much is always constant to the individual player and as you build your character, so to does your gear upgrade. Nobody expects a new player fresh to the game to go straight to the very best top of everything, it's a building process and the costs are to great. Cannon fighting gear is more practical and cheaper just like you said and is more common which is why most people do cannon fighting not melee. Cost is a major reason why most people choose gun combat over melee, that and there's more options for gun gear both ingame and uwc. For melee, really the only decent gear is uwc one way or another. But either way like Havok and I stated, gear is part of the character no matter what ship you use, mostly it's the ship that changes on a char not the gear.
Play style is a big part of what I do. You've even mentioned about my playstyle that you've seen yourself, but my playstyle is unique when it comes to melee fighting in fleet combat. Traditionally, melee is there is temporarily hold a enemy so a fleet member can line up for a crit shot at which time the melee'er will release the ship for the ally to 1shot kill. I don't do this and instead of playing melee as a support for the fleet shooter, I use it as a main attack to make kills. This is much harder and not the norm and I do know this but it's my playstyle. I certainly don't expect anyone to play their game the way I do. I hope this clears up your issues you had with me and this thread as you have contributed good insights but have misread the thread intentions.
This is my current test ship. FS Dauphin Royal. Yes low crew makes it weak to melee, but in terms of how she handles in the ring. She is a beast. Her ability to push other ships is unbelievable. Her response to turning with my skill levels and gear is incredible. Because of my knowledge of the mechanics of the game, I have been able to tank 3 people at one time. Because of my skill levels and my gear, I have taken on most cases less than 1k damage on crits. (this number is also based upon running the proper defenses for the guns i was tanking against). This is just g1 and 1495 is the max dura at g1. I will soon have it at g6 where the dura will be at 1551. very impressive for a FS ship.
I did mention my gear. yes, after all the years i have played, after all the time gathering personal experience in the ring, my gear really brings all this together. Which is also why in my last comment on this post I said, "Skills and gear are most important as they travel between ships." The gear set up i use for this ship is the same as i use for the Renown, and both perform absolutely wonderful in my hands.
So if I were to recommend anything to a new player that is stumbling across this post, Get the levels for the ship you really want to get into and then focus on your skills. after that work on getting proper gear. finally start working towards that ship you really want to get into. because there is nothing better than getting into a ship that you already know how to use and have the skills and gears to make that ship work great. whether that ship is FS or UWC, it doesnt matter.
Happy 2022 everyone,
Here's to you, and everyone you know.
(soon to come will be video footage of this ship in action btw) :P :P :P
Will try to avoid going over stuff I've already said since repeating myself further doesn't seem like it will elicit further understanding.
"I have a telescope but I don't use since i'm a close range fighter, not long range where it's most effective." Almost everyone uses it, I've seen entire fleets of 10 using it in battle, including close range fighters using double shot cannons, which only further demonstrates how broken it is. This includes you actually. The first screenshot I have from the December ESF has you in it in light round, with a golden ring around your ship denoting the use of telescope lol. Not sure why you said otherwise when that's so easy to prove but okay. Another screenshot in standard round. Ah yes, and finally again in heavy round. I can post all 3 if you like?
Nobody else replied to you in this thread with similar thoughts as mine because I said all that was required to say and anyone saying additional stuff would just be repeating what I said and thus pointless. It was suggested by someone else you take your thoughts to the MBL server where actual PvPers can have their say, if you're so sure of your correctness in this I see no harm in doing so. I refuted all your points while you dodged and avoided answering my questions and responses and even answered additional questions from jayburner (who had no further questions so I can only take that as him agreeing/seeing why it is relevant). Many people actually, understood and agree with my points, they just choose not to engage with such a cesspit as these forums (but have spoken to me personally). Realistically I'm probably wasting my time here and I know that, but maybe what I've said could help someone and that's enough for me. Gear cannot be a separate topic. I've explained why so many times.
"This is much harder and not the norm and I do know this but it's my playstyle." I'm sure it's quite difficult indeed to sit in melee and click a button every couple of seconds while laughing at how much more your gear cost than theirs. Please take care of your wrists, maintaining such APM over the course of 3h of ESF must be quite taxing and repetitive strain injury I'm told has ended many a melee star's career.
I tried to turn this thread into something useful with my last few posts. Please don't insult the intentions of my doing that by continuing to focus on this "you vs. me" thing. I would've much preferred to hear more feedback on the post itself, points made and information shared, perhaps some futher discussion could have been had and further questions allowing me to expand on some of those points. A missed opportunity I guess.
A Superior Brave Set isn't exactly affordable to the majority of players. What you're saying is that it's not the UWC ships that kill you, it's the OP Char Gear that kills you.. Considering no one has actually said that FS ships aren't viable on this threat and that it's the gear that really gets you.. You're not helping anything. No one is denying FS ships being decent now(After a series of buffs from Koei), they're primarily objecting to the fact that someone can spend $700 and be hard to beat in a massive game of rock paper scissors.
Leaving your company everytime someone objects to this reasoning isn't the way to go btw 😉
considering that i didnt leave my company for someone objecting to my fs ship thing, but because of the toxicity in my company and the people who were two faced talking behind my back and others back. And considering what happened in the last week, im glad i did leave as the company has become more like how old PAC does things, which iirc, PAC died because of the stuff they were doing to their company members before killadub took over. I left due to the fact that there were several members who were more interested in their ego than listening to sound evidence that was in front of them. And just cause im getting rid of a ship for some gear to play with friends with land battle doesnt mean a thing. but to now come on to the forums to keep the drama going is a little fun, and I feel so special that everlast still has me on their mind all the time. :D thank you for the love guys, keep up the support :D
considering i have full custody of my kid and my business i run is out of my garage, your comment is not only misinformed, but also just another attempt to try to bring drama into someone else's forum post. keep on talking about me and leaving more and more proof of the kind of people that exist in this world. BTW, i make no money off twitch lmao, i stream for the community.
The issue here is, while you seem to have a general disliking towards uwc ships and saying fs ships can be just as capable(subject to opinion). I don’t think the way you’re going around preaching about fs ships and slamming on uwc ships is the way to go. The way you envision playing uwo is not how Maris is set up and no matter what you try, it won’t become like that unless papaya decides to alter it. Now.. you’ve already said you run gear approximately 200ct+. And that it works amazingly well in your hands, but what difference does it make if you sail an outdated rog at g6 max, compared to an fs ship max modded which is probably only 5-10 ct cheaper. The ships aren’t the issue. All you’ve done by going the fs route is moving the issue from ship prices over to gear, that’s truely it. Maritime still isn’t viable for newer maritimers like myself if I have to compensate the lack of ship capability with 100’s of ct’s in gear and cannons like you do yourself.
Now on the topic of toxicity within your previous company. I’ve been apart of it for over a year and have hardly if ever come across toxicity towards myself. Is it perhaps possible that the way you behave in the game has something to do with you being called out constantly? I have nothing against you as I personally don’t know you, but since I returned I’ve seen nothing but preaching from you in merchant chat, streaming about god knows what.. I can imagine people growing tired of that. Especially if you aren’t open to other opinions like I’ve read throughout the topic.
oh and before you say, I’ve pointed out cheap alternatives.. why aren’t you using them as an example if they’re that capable. Since you seem to be cashing in a 300-400 ct ship for equally expensive gear.
So because one person called you out in granted, a way I probably wouldn’t. Does that warrant calling out an entire company? I’m in there as well yet you’re indirectly insulting me as well with such comments while I don’t partake in cursing people out etc.
But, what about the other points I made that are actually on the subject of the topic?
i already answered why i want the gear. I dont need a PIATS since i can tank in an FS ship. But i want to be able to play in duels in seville with my friends as to why i want the gear i was getting. but i changed that and am now getting 25 FS ships in exchange for my PIATS because FS can compete. And as i stated in an earlier comment, Skills>Gear>Ship. Gear is more important and is what people should work towards after maxing the gear. And it became a company thing when many members of said company started coming at me and now bringing my kid into this drama and my personal life, when i have not made any bad comments about their personal life or how they choose to live. But as far as i was concerned, this drama has been done for about 2 weeks and not said a word about the whole thing except to defend against the ones who continue to come at me and continue the drama. But the ones who also brought my child into the drama also quickly changed their comment once i called them out upon it, but I already have it screenshotted and reported, because that is not called for. especially over a video game. Just because i stand behind my FS ships and the fact that any player that chooses to learn and play the game, can compete against top tier ships in a FS ship. It is my experience in the ring that allows me to do what i do in the FS ships. the gear just boosts the experience i already have and make them more effective. Skill>Gear>Ship
hey man dont get so flustered i was just making a joke and i quickly changed the comment after you got a little bit angry im sorry if your feelings got hurt from that but it wasnt intentional your being sensitive havoc but you showed my joke had some truth in it lol sory havoc
Comments
@HeavyWater thx for the reply, ok some follow up questions...
1 In MBL where there are ENORMOUS prizes on the line, do you think for a moment people would not be using their best equipment and ships? **Precisely**.
but wouldn't that mean that people would also be using melee gear for those that do it? i'm sure there's more people in this game that use melee gear then just her. If nobody used melee fighting then this super brave set you talk about wouldn't be so high value since nobody would use it?
2 The fact that you call what she has shown “evidence” is exactly where you have been misled. No serious PvPer takes this thread seriously because we all know how ridiculous it would be to try to kill people in melee in MSF with cheaper gear. She is trying to “cherry pick”, in her words, ships as a standalone thing where they cannot be discussed alone BECAUSE her chosen method of obtaining “proof” is melee where gear is far more important than ship as long as you have WMB which can be inherited.
I get that but she said she could use the same ship with the top cannon gear and be just as effective as other top shooters so i don't get why the gear/ship combo is an issue since you said that people will use their best stuff in question 1 not cheap gear. wouldn't you have the same shooting skils in a low tier ship as a top tier? Are guns more effective in better ships or more effective with better gear?
3 I myself choose to use a lower tier ship, one that costs far less than her gear, and I fare fine in ESF and other PvP events. I am proof myself. I choose to use a sail ship vs phantom monster despite rowers being by far the better option. If anyone is to prove such an argument as “you don’t need top tier ship” it is me. However there is no argument to prove because this “stigma” she speaks of is invented. No one says that.
isnt this thread is suppose to be about fighting in low tier ships? Isn't that what she's doing or am I missing something? If there no difference in fighting in low tier ships than what's the point of all this and why are upper ships so expensive then?
4The problem I have with this thread is her perpetuation of the idea that gear is not relevant. Gear is very relevant regardless of whether you do cannon or melee. It is required for cannon battle to boost your skills to cut through the very high durability, armour and evasion many top PvPers run. For melee it gives you more stat pure and simple, and that stat is all that matters in melee and is the only reason she gets any melee kills in MSF.
gear is important, it makes up the character right? Even as a new player that should be obvious but she didn't say it wasn't important, just not to this topic. So what happens if she follows though with what she said about doing another test in melee using only ingame gear? She did say it wasn't likely to succeed but that she would look into trying it. I think that would be interesting to see how that come out.
I don't know dude, it kinda sounds like you two are arguing about the same thing but just from 2 different views.
@Jayburner
If I use the best possible cannon gear, with refitted grand seraphims or MGHP 18s and telescope while in FS survey frigate (a very low tier ship that has evade melee battle so could avoid getting easily wiped by wallet melee), I'm sure I could kill many people. But what does that mean?
If you have to use a low tier ship because you can't afford it. Why would you be able to afford expensive cannons and gear?
What does this post mean to such a person? Nothing. It means absolutely nothing to the kinds of people it claims to be trying to support.
If I were incapable of affording any decent ship or gear I would personally be insulted. Seeing this person with superior brave gear and royal neapolitan galleass trying to pretend she is anything like me or knows anything about my feelings or my difficulties. It's offensive to suggest it's the same thing by ignoring the relevance and cost of gear.
@purplepirate
if you want to reach a wider audience maybe you can post your findings on discord?
i am sure you will get more responses and feedback.
just in case you dont have the link
this is the MBL discord - https://discord.gg/mxvcPXcP
@HeavyWater My focus in this thread is purely to stop you spreading lies and misinformation about how battle works. That's all.
Just as I said, you're not here for real discussions, you're only here because you're pissed at me personally, not the topic it's about.
@Jayburner And if people use top cannon gear then who cares if she wants to use melee gear, it it part of combat. I don't see the difference here so please someone explain it!
There is no difference Jay, he's just upset because i made him rage quit in some battle lol. Sup Brave gear is expensive because all the parts have the highest att/def stats of any gear and give max skills offered at +3. There's cannon gears that also give high skills but not as much att/def, but you don't need att/def if you are fighting with guns. Using all the best gun gear will also add up to be extremely expsensive once you forge/transmute all the parts, not as expsensive but still alot. It's true that not many people do melee compared to cannon combat but the boost gun gear gives in battle is really no different than melee versions. Even without telescope, cannons can kill you in one shot with max skills alone just like how melee gear will allow you to defeat your opponent quicker in melee. It just depends on your play style but guns are just as effective in low tier ships. Melee is actually more effective the larger ship you use due to the much higher crew available to fight with not in the ship I've been using in this thread.
Yes I'll be looking to do that in the new year thx!
@purplepirate
My “real discussions” are above. If you have no response then that isn’t my problem.
If you are right then explain what this post means to someone who uses a low tier ship solely because they **can’t afford** a better one. We’ve established melee isn’t an option because they won’t have strong enough gear to overcome a better ship. So actually cannons are a more viable option, especially given the price difference of cannon gear to melee gear and that forging/transmuting isn’t required, although even the price of 20s compared with other cannons can be daunting the difference is still only a few billion extra, not hundreds. But instead you made some post that makes such bold claims about “proof” and when refuted ignore the argument.
Sounds like forfeiting but if you have a proper response beyond name-calling you’re welcome to try.
MBL server can only be graced by your presence in the new year? Not now?
You claimed to be more credible due to your use of the forums, Jayburner even believed that ridiculous statement. I guess it wasn’t obvious no one uses these forums because they’re a joke to people because of exactly these kinds of posts.
If you had any real thoughts and discussion to have you would bring it to the MBL server where all the real PvPers are since that is where the PvP with actual rewards is. Sounds a lot like the “pvp community”, but you tell me I’m not in that so I must be mistaken and this is all a fevered dream, one where I participated in MBL and you… did not. You are not in any of the recorded footage I saw or in the server as I see. Why does being a forums warrior in a joke forum make you more credible?
Use your keyboard skills to fight in PvP instead of forums then maybe we can see, yes?
I can assure you, and please understand this. I am not here because I’m upset at you personally, just that I dislike this post’s self-important invention of a “stigma” that doesn’t exist, then providing a fake solution which is insulting to the people it pretends to solve the problem for.
Who are you helping with your post? Someone living in a shack while driving a fleet of sports cars doesn’t need your help. Those people could just sell one or two and buy a better house.
If you can afford all this expensive melee gear why would you need to use a low tier ship?
Who are you helping with your post outside of your own ego?
PSA: 10 v 2 doesn't count as pvp..
But as you seem so focussed at avoiding logic in this post I assume you will discount my opinion cause I just so happen to disagree with you, claiming to be part of the pvp despite being part of a team that relies on Everlast to even stand a chance even against the Dutch!!
Ok, now you sound like a reasonable person who wants to have a discussion. This I can respect and i don't believe I used any 'name calling'. I haven't disagreed with you that i use top tier equipment and in fact I mentioned that gear makes up part of the character because it's the only way to get to max stats.
This thread was more about low vs high ships, the 'gear' issue i was going tackle in a different thread so I could cover ALL gears that way, top/low/uwc and in game both melee and cannon. Comparing gears is far more complex discussion, you should know that. I didn't want to talk about gear because although I have some high end gun gear i haven't gotten enough to properly be effective nor do i have any decent damage guns which are a must.
It is true that I haven't done any MBL yet but I have reason for that, i work most weekends early when the first 2 seasons have been held. I make Saturday ESF because i get home about an hourish before it starts so I can play. I can't help this as I need the money for school. It was suggested to me to join a team as a 'stand by' but most fleets are mostly looking for people who show every week, not once in awhile. This year I've heard that they are changing the format for it and i hope that include more flexible times and days (Sundays are best for me). So hopefully you will see me this year because I genuinely want to play.
There no ego here and my <3 i use in battle is meant as a "no hard feelings" gesture. You can't deny that there are some toxic players in the game that rip into people and call them names when they sink someone, especially if they are new and weak. I genuinely feel bad when when I get caught in melee with a noobie which shows when i see how low their stats are once in battle. Ofc I know I'm going to crush them but in ESF it is a competition and i have to try to win for our fleet. Once i identify a noobie I've even apologized for having to sink them this way sometimes.
@HeavyWater thx
@purplepirate
Disregarding your previous hostility and personal attacks, and the way you've really ignored what I said in my above post, I'll talk here about the viability of low tier ships and gear in PvP (with specific regard to ESF as it's the most open/welcoming of the PvP events IMO.
But first some responses:
So, the viability of low tier ships and gear in PvP.
I'll first say I am extremely disappointed with the new cove. Light round was already pretty bad, with double shot 20s and telescope meaning it is extremely easy to kill ships with simple broadside shots or combo shots. Stronger and stronger ships which won't be reasonably available to poorer and newer players are not the answer. Then you have the Elite Commander's Caravel. Personally this addition disgusts me, even more disgusting to hear CA say they're "glad" it was added. Standard was IMO always the most balanced and fairest round for all. It was the one I performed best in and had the most fun playing. I am extremely disappointed to see a standard ship which now has superior stats to heavy ships (see Vaisseau and Super Frigate). The only separation now is gunports (4 vs 5).
I don't care how much money you have, or how much money you spend on the game, no one can reasonably see this addition as gladdening or fair or fun or healthy for the game. No one. Anyone who does is delusional (i.e. not reasonable).
If they want to add new UWC ship, sure, do that. But why does it always have to be more and more OP? Why can't it be the same quality as current ships, but different types? I know people would like to see a Superior Commander's Sambuk, Superior Commander's Corvette, Superior Commander's Galley perhaps. Why not give people more choices instead of constantly stronger stronger stronger? Ridiculous and disappointing decision from KOEIPaya. Ships like Commander's Corvette are already struggling. The new caravel has +290 base durability over Commander's Corvette, over double the base armour and 100 base sailors compared with a mere 42... Really, truely saddening for anyone who hoped to be able to simply build an FS ship and participate in Standard round with some hope of fairness and balance.
This all aside I will now speak solely of heavy round as the other two are conclusively ruined IMO.
Heavy round has many, many issues, but with higher overall stats certain things balance out a bit, e.g. you have a biiiit more leeway with 1 shots if you're running defence skills (will come back to this because it's basically not true anymore).
Melee gameplay using cheap gear is very difficult as FS ships or low tier UWC ones simply don't have the crew sizes of the more expensive ones, and then the kind of difference you get from using cheaper gear to using the most expensive gear is enormous. Thus, on a budget, melee should be avoided altogether. This isn't entirely possible since turtles no longer have 100% melee evade, but the current evade functions as 70% IIRC. The screenshot shared earlier in this thread of a fleet of low-tier turtle ships and a survey frigate (which is the only not-expensive heavy ship that can have evade melee as an optional skill) is a great example of this. If any of these ships are caught in melee they will suffer greatly, even to those not entirely geared for melee, but the ability to avoid it most of the time will help a lot. Another solution is to use a ship that has Welcome Melee Battle and Attack Prevention Net. Defence stat is very hard to gain in melee without these two skills (primarily Welcome Melee Battle), however the mechanics behind WMB in particular are a bit obtuse and require losing crew ability in order to proc the effect, so really melee overall makes this a very daunting and unfun experience for newer/inexperienced players but those skills or evade melee are the best advice I can offer there.
Regarding cannon gameplay: Cannons are the fairer (will come back to this) battle IMO (and very likely in the opinions of most as it is clearly significantly less affected by cost of ship and gear than melee is). With the sheer power of 20-port cannons, 1 shotting can be achieved more consistently depending on your specific choice of cannons (carronades and double shot in particular are very strong for ingame cannons), but players using high tier gear and ships will have very high durability and armour on their ships alongside high rank or maxed evasion which makes 1-shotting with lower skill ranks difficult. Additionally aide shot-type defence skills exist which will greatly reduce the damage from a particular shot type, with double-shot defence being widely available.
I said I would come back to a note on defence skills. In my personal experience, due to telescope (which I will specifically discuss more later), defence skills are almost as worthless as ducats now. Richer players using cannons such as RGS can 1 shot a mid-tier ship (e.g. mine) through chain shot defence skill. This is because the telescope, not only reverses the damage falloff ranges, but also adds damage at all ranges. Funny how practically everyone is using it now, huh? (I and the people I usually fleet with in ESF personally don't, will come back to that later)
The reason cannon gameplay in general is fairer is because there is much more initiative to be taken by the player, much more ability to express skill, than can be found in melee where the outcome is practically pre-decided by who has more stats at the beginning (the game pretends there is some "rock paper scissors" involved with the melee skills but if you have even a meagre stat advantage, even a direct, repeated skill counter does nothing in my experience). High tier ships do have an advantage in cannon gameplay, I said this in one of my first posts in this thread, but there is still more room for expression of skill as Havok also suggested. That's the key point here expression of skill, the ability to overcome stat/wealth disadvantage through outplay and occasional luck.
Much of cannon gameplay seems at first glance to involve 1-shots, but not always. And that's okay. I don't often 1 shot in heavy round but you can work with your teammates, utilising not-1-shots and mines as well to chip away at enemy max durability and eventually sink them if you can survive long enough (which is where defence skills and also just experience/skill in dodging will be of great assistance).
Enter telescope:
Unfun,
Unfair,
Unskilled.
There are three key parts to the turd-pile that is telescope.
As mentioned earlier it provides additional damage which simply could not be otherwise achieved and can allow 1 shot through defence skills where it was previously not possible and this is disgusting.
It is not available to everyone (especially poorer players) as, due to its power, it is highly demanded by those rich PvPers who wish to maximise their winrate by using the best possible gear, which I cannot and do not blame them for necessarily. Which means it is expensive. Imagine a poorer player already struggling to afford a ship, cannons, parts and gear, then needing to spend so much on telescope as well just to be competitive. Sickening.
The single biggest issue is the fact that it is an unfun addition to the game. The fundamentals of battle are there, always have been. Key word: fundamentals. I discussed some of the fundamentals above although can't go into too much detail on them here. Teamwork, dodging, tactics, positioning. The telescope is an addition to the game, an unnecessary one, that destroys this fundamental gameplay that we've all enjoyed for so many years. Dodging effectively for example, relies so much on controlling specific angles so you know where you can turn and still be safe from critical hits. The telescope means there are now so many more angles you can be in danger from, even from across the ring. It pains me beyond belief, to see people trying out ESF and finding it unfun because they couldn't even see who killed them. This is only made worse by the addition of cannons such as MGHP 18 with their absurd range and piercing power. Shortly before telescope was released I saw an influx of new players to ESF. I see none of those now. In fact it is well-known a variety of PvPers have quit since its release. What a sad situation.
This feeling of lack of control and agency in battle is not fun for those being targeted by it.
In any other game, this is a clear balance issue and would be immediate cause for review and fixing. Here, it is being further encouraged by KOEIPaya with the lack of fixes and the addition of things such as MGHP 18s.
When everyone is using a specific item in a game, real developers look at how this affects the game and how it makes players feel. I can provide material which evidences this in other games if required but it's common knowledge and common sense.
The telescope isn't fun even for users, hence why some refuse to use it. I tried it the first ESF after it was released and honestly everything was a lot easier, I got many, many kills very easily. But it wasn't fun. I recall an uproar on every side, even those who would usually be at odds agreeing it was a terrible addition. Yet it remains ingame and as strong as ever. Those who still use it I can't blame as it's reasonable to want every advantage, but it saddens me still.
I recently sent a support ticket as Papaya 5 months ago said they would gather opinions and make a decision on it. They never communicated anything since then so I inquired further and made my points. The response was that new options to "help combat" the telescope would be available eventually.
Anyone with any sense should be greatly concerned by this.
They will remove the skill from cannon gameplay (what is left of it anyway after telescope) and turn it into rock paper scissors.
If they have telescope, we must have X. If we have X they must have Y. If they have Y we must have Z.
And where does this leave the new player, or the poor player? Confused, upset and frustrated in an unplayable PvP environment.
The telescope was just the first poison. If these destructive additions to fundamental combat continue, PvP will only get worse and worse. If people think it is already inaccessible to new and/or poorer players, then I don't want to imagine what it will be like with more such additions.
So, bringing this back to the topic of low-tier PvP gameplay. As I've mentioned it is difficult now and will only get more difficult.
But I will discuss options for a poorer player:
Several battle ships have recently received durability buffs, many were missed which is disappointing and I have asked that those be fixed, will see if that ever happens.
Renown is still likely the best option for a cheap PvP ship, but at least with these buffs there is some more choice, great! Should have happened a long time ago. Additionally these ships also had their levels reduced which makes them further more accessible, also a good decision.
UWC ships are a bit hard to go into, there are some decent "low tier" options, but these have faded greatly with time and with new high tier additions and probably aren't worth the prices anymore and with the FS buffs it's probably better off to buy an FS one. I can discuss UWC choices further in another post if required however.
Ingame gear is the best it has ever been, especially for cannons. The Sea Monster's Evil Spear with its 100 attack (craftable), +2 accuracy/ballistics is an amazing weapon for PvP and has been widely used at points by the entire community. The Sea Dragon's Demon Sword is also a very good option with +2 accuracy +3 ballistics albeit lesser attack than the spear, unless forged.
Additionally, Sea Monster's Robes and Sea Dragon's Plate Armours are great cannon-boosting ingame gears with okay melee stats (mostly defence focused and with the best versions of the Sea Dragon armour having +3 pene/+2 ballistics and +2 gunnery.
The Sea Dragon armours will be more expensive than the Sea Monster's Robes which are really quite cheap, but both are in fairly decent availability depending on how much Sea of Wonders farming is currently ongoing. (Anyone is welcome to message me (Rufas) ingame about any phantom monster equipment at any time, be it to purchase or just to ask questions, I also have a discord server which has a ton of info on sea of wonders with specific focus on the phantom monster fights and rewards).
(I realise I didn't touch on melee gear because I really think it should be avoided if you can't afford UWC gear but again if someone wants more info please pm me or ask here.)
Hopefully this info helps someone. Sorry it was all so long. Let me know what you think.
But dutch is more of a PvE Team , So if dutch can win any Pvp will be good . :D
So, here is why spending so much on a ship is the last thing you need to worry about when you are getting into pvp. top tier ships are unreliable when you do not have the gear to back it up, but same time, so is a low tier ship or a fs ship for that matter. The actual point is that you should be spending your hard earned money getting the gear to be able to boost your skill ranks up before even worrying about a top end ship. which like what was said earlier, 200 ct for a gear set is alot cheaper than 500 ct for a top uwc ship(which isnt needed in all reality to be able to compete with the top maritimers as i have proved myself with a FS renown using in game made guns.) The gear goes with you from ship to ship as was mentioned before, so its a far more valuable long term investment than a top uwc ship that wont be top tier uwc ship for long with how they release the new top ships. At the end of the day also, it is also the long grind and hard work that Sam has done that compliments her gear and playstyle that even allows her to take a low end ship and melee out these top tier ships. The bottom line is that before worrying about a top tier 500 ct ship, you should worry about grinding your skills, getting the gear you need to get, and learn the playstyle you enjoy the most. TBH Sam would be devasting in an FS ship that is out atm called the Whydah. FS ship with 350 crew, with her melee capabilities, and her gear set. I wouldnt want to lock into melee with her at all in that ship. And for the record I am in a renown, and i have been in melee with Sam, and I have lasted more than 3 rounds and gotten out of the melee each time.
Skills>Gear>Ship.
thats the order of how someone should be approaching things, because until they get the skills and the gear(whether top gear or just good gear for what they need to do) the ship that they use does not matter as the person can not use the ship at its full potential.
and anyone who says a FS ship is always a one shot, hasnt been in a FS ship with max refined steering.
Happy New Year everyone! I hope that everyone had a great winter vacation, got lots of rest and stayed safe this year.
@HeavyWater Who's this thread directed to? Well pretty much everyone since being on a public forum grants many different perspectives to emerge. From your views about the telescope to havoks input from his experience using fs ships, all adds to what people take away with them when they read it, the more they can learn the better. Newer people who haven't played as long as others can gain great insight from many perspectives to help them get a better grasp on the game mechanics while experienced players can also learn and quell curiosity from experiments like havok and I have done that they wouldn't devote the time to try themselves. Although many vets may have and use telescope, there's still always some that haven't gotten it or don't use it for whatever reason. I have a telescope but I don't use since i'm a close range fighter, not long range where it's most effective. But yes your views are valuable.
As for your original points, the first was the about my use of uwc gear and me 'hiding' that fact to get my results. You are right in the sense that gear does play a factor in my wins but there was nothing hidden about it since it was clearly stated right from the start. I was using my best gear against others who were using their best gear so everything was equal, this was stated in the first post. The only difference was the type of ship that was being used, i was using the low tier against their upper tier. The gear was irrelevant because if I was using a upper tier ship i still would be using the same equipment. So even in a better ship, my win rate should be higher since the ship is better duras (and my melee stats would be alot higher with larger crew numbers).
Every person (except for you) who's read this thread has understood that although gear does play a factor, that this has been about ship comparison not gear, which is why nobody else has supported your . Every post from greywolf, ranger and jayburner to havoks contributions have understood that gear is a separate topic and not what the focus of this thread was about. Goldfx, who made the first post in this thread refuted my findings but even he came from the perspective of ships not gear, all of this was clearly stated in the first post, not one person has argued in support of your issues. I'm sorry if you have read into something that's not there but there was nothing hidden. I even admitted that I don't use full superior setup but use a mixed gear setup so my stats (and value of setup) is much lower than what it could be if I actually used all the top items. No where in my post did i ever say I was using low end gear, you actually added that to the thread "I'll talk here about the viability of low tier ships and gear in PvP". I was only testing ships at the start and made it clear that I didnt' have enough info on low end ingame gear but when it came to melee anyways i doubted ingame gear would be effective.
On the topic of cost comparison of high end melee gear vs the cost of top tier ships, you are correct that both costs can get expensive or newer players and yes the total cost of the full superior set fully forged/transmuted is much higher than any ship. But my cost isn't as high since I stated that I didn't use the full set. I also listed affordable alternatives to the sup set (ISE, surg rongfu, mamc) which are nowhere near the cost of the top set but are just as competitive. People can go though many ships in the time they play this game but gear pretty much is always constant to the individual player and as you build your character, so to does your gear upgrade. Nobody expects a new player fresh to the game to go straight to the very best top of everything, it's a building process and the costs are to great. Cannon fighting gear is more practical and cheaper just like you said and is more common which is why most people do cannon fighting not melee. Cost is a major reason why most people choose gun combat over melee, that and there's more options for gun gear both ingame and uwc. For melee, really the only decent gear is uwc one way or another. But either way like Havok and I stated, gear is part of the character no matter what ship you use, mostly it's the ship that changes on a char not the gear.
Play style is a big part of what I do. You've even mentioned about my playstyle that you've seen yourself, but my playstyle is unique when it comes to melee fighting in fleet combat. Traditionally, melee is there is temporarily hold a enemy so a fleet member can line up for a crit shot at which time the melee'er will release the ship for the ally to 1shot kill. I don't do this and instead of playing melee as a support for the fleet shooter, I use it as a main attack to make kills. This is much harder and not the norm and I do know this but it's my playstyle. I certainly don't expect anyone to play their game the way I do. I hope this clears up your issues you had with me and this thread as you have contributed good insights but have misread the thread intentions.
This is my current test ship. FS Dauphin Royal. Yes low crew makes it weak to melee, but in terms of how she handles in the ring. She is a beast. Her ability to push other ships is unbelievable. Her response to turning with my skill levels and gear is incredible. Because of my knowledge of the mechanics of the game, I have been able to tank 3 people at one time. Because of my skill levels and my gear, I have taken on most cases less than 1k damage on crits. (this number is also based upon running the proper defenses for the guns i was tanking against). This is just g1 and 1495 is the max dura at g1. I will soon have it at g6 where the dura will be at 1551. very impressive for a FS ship.
I did mention my gear. yes, after all the years i have played, after all the time gathering personal experience in the ring, my gear really brings all this together. Which is also why in my last comment on this post I said, "Skills and gear are most important as they travel between ships." The gear set up i use for this ship is the same as i use for the Renown, and both perform absolutely wonderful in my hands.
So if I were to recommend anything to a new player that is stumbling across this post, Get the levels for the ship you really want to get into and then focus on your skills. after that work on getting proper gear. finally start working towards that ship you really want to get into. because there is nothing better than getting into a ship that you already know how to use and have the skills and gears to make that ship work great. whether that ship is FS or UWC, it doesnt matter.
Happy 2022 everyone,
Here's to you, and everyone you know.
(soon to come will be video footage of this ship in action btw) :P :P :P
Will try to avoid going over stuff I've already said since repeating myself further doesn't seem like it will elicit further understanding.
I tried to turn this thread into something useful with my last few posts. Please don't insult the intentions of my doing that by continuing to focus on this "you vs. me" thing. I would've much preferred to hear more feedback on the post itself, points made and information shared, perhaps some futher discussion could have been had and further questions allowing me to expand on some of those points. A missed opportunity I guess.
I randomly read this thread while taking dumps on the toilet, and it ruins the experience for me every time.
A Superior Brave Set isn't exactly affordable to the majority of players. What you're saying is that it's not the UWC ships that kill you, it's the OP Char Gear that kills you.. Considering no one has actually said that FS ships aren't viable on this threat and that it's the gear that really gets you.. You're not helping anything. No one is denying FS ships being decent now(After a series of buffs from Koei), they're primarily objecting to the fact that someone can spend $700 and be hard to beat in a massive game of rock paper scissors.
Leaving your company everytime someone objects to this reasoning isn't the way to go btw 😉
considering that i didnt leave my company for someone objecting to my fs ship thing, but because of the toxicity in my company and the people who were two faced talking behind my back and others back. And considering what happened in the last week, im glad i did leave as the company has become more like how old PAC does things, which iirc, PAC died because of the stuff they were doing to their company members before killadub took over. I left due to the fact that there were several members who were more interested in their ego than listening to sound evidence that was in front of them. And just cause im getting rid of a ship for some gear to play with friends with land battle doesnt mean a thing. but to now come on to the forums to keep the drama going is a little fun, and I feel so special that everlast still has me on their mind all the time. :D thank you for the love guys, keep up the support :D
get a life havoc
considering i have full custody of my kid and my business i run is out of my garage, your comment is not only misinformed, but also just another attempt to try to bring drama into someone else's forum post. keep on talking about me and leaving more and more proof of the kind of people that exist in this world. BTW, i make no money off twitch lmao, i stream for the community.
dont worry the screenshot was already taken and it was already reported. GL
The issue here is, while you seem to have a general disliking towards uwc ships and saying fs ships can be just as capable(subject to opinion). I don’t think the way you’re going around preaching about fs ships and slamming on uwc ships is the way to go. The way you envision playing uwo is not how Maris is set up and no matter what you try, it won’t become like that unless papaya decides to alter it. Now.. you’ve already said you run gear approximately 200ct+. And that it works amazingly well in your hands, but what difference does it make if you sail an outdated rog at g6 max, compared to an fs ship max modded which is probably only 5-10 ct cheaper. The ships aren’t the issue. All you’ve done by going the fs route is moving the issue from ship prices over to gear, that’s truely it. Maritime still isn’t viable for newer maritimers like myself if I have to compensate the lack of ship capability with 100’s of ct’s in gear and cannons like you do yourself.
Now on the topic of toxicity within your previous company. I’ve been apart of it for over a year and have hardly if ever come across toxicity towards myself. Is it perhaps possible that the way you behave in the game has something to do with you being called out constantly? I have nothing against you as I personally don’t know you, but since I returned I’ve seen nothing but preaching from you in merchant chat, streaming about god knows what.. I can imagine people growing tired of that. Especially if you aren’t open to other opinions like I’ve read throughout the topic.
oh and before you say, I’ve pointed out cheap alternatives.. why aren’t you using them as an example if they’re that capable. Since you seem to be cashing in a 300-400 ct ship for equally expensive gear.
https://youtu.be/yh8-zDF-4w0 the toxicity i refer to.
So because one person called you out in granted, a way I probably wouldn’t. Does that warrant calling out an entire company? I’m in there as well yet you’re indirectly insulting me as well with such comments while I don’t partake in cursing people out etc.
But, what about the other points I made that are actually on the subject of the topic?
i already answered why i want the gear. I dont need a PIATS since i can tank in an FS ship. But i want to be able to play in duels in seville with my friends as to why i want the gear i was getting. but i changed that and am now getting 25 FS ships in exchange for my PIATS because FS can compete. And as i stated in an earlier comment, Skills>Gear>Ship. Gear is more important and is what people should work towards after maxing the gear. And it became a company thing when many members of said company started coming at me and now bringing my kid into this drama and my personal life, when i have not made any bad comments about their personal life or how they choose to live. But as far as i was concerned, this drama has been done for about 2 weeks and not said a word about the whole thing except to defend against the ones who continue to come at me and continue the drama. But the ones who also brought my child into the drama also quickly changed their comment once i called them out upon it, but I already have it screenshotted and reported, because that is not called for. especially over a video game. Just because i stand behind my FS ships and the fact that any player that chooses to learn and play the game, can compete against top tier ships in a FS ship. It is my experience in the ring that allows me to do what i do in the FS ships. the gear just boosts the experience i already have and make them more effective. Skill>Gear>Ship
hey man dont get so flustered i was just making a joke and i quickly changed the comment after you got a little bit angry im sorry if your feelings got hurt from that but it wasnt intentional your being sensitive havoc but you showed my joke had some truth in it lol sory havoc